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TOPIC: Second Generation Red LEDs

Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 18 Jul 2003 17:27 #21585

  • Ken Layton
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Several theaters near me still run MONO sound. So now the cyan scare tactics say not only do you need to buy a reverse scan unit, but now you have to buy Dolby SR cards, too. So if you have a stereo processor that only has Dolby A it still will sound bad with cyan. Your only choice (depending on the processor model you have) is to either buy Dolby SR cards (you need TWO of them) or another processor ($$$$). Boy they are really digging into exhibitors pockets yet again. When will this end? What will the next thing be that you "must have" in order to show 'our' (insert distributor's name here) movies?
Personally IMO if they sent me a cyan track movie, I'd send it back as a "defective print".
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Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 18 Jul 2003 17:54 #21586

  • LanceC
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Ken,
While I agree that we have all the "legislation" that we can afford, Isn't it time that most mono houses make the transition to stereo of some sort. If we all preach film done right then doesnt that include giving the public the sound that the director had intended. I own a small house with three screens. Nothing pissed me off more than having to upgrade a 3 year old theatre with digital matrix in my processors to DTS just so I could show a Lucas film. But I bit the bullet. This process is good for the ecology, and sure we will never see the savings that the distributors will but you know full well that reverse scan has better frequency separation, need less tweaking and actually save the operator time and money of replacing those old exiter bulbs. Hey
Gordon, How long ago did you put in the reverse scans here? I think it has been 4 or 5 years now and sure it hurt the budget, but I hope I give a better presentation because of them. I intend no disrespect to your opinion but I for one welcome the conversion. And yes I still have a **** load exciter bulbs in the cabinet.
lance
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Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 19 Jul 2003 15:59 #21587

  • outaframe
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Dolby A and SR were IMPROVEMENTS that required narrow slit lenses, stereo cells, and MAJOR sound system changes to fully realize the benefits, but the benefits were substantial, and yet, IF a theater weren't updated, they could still be played on nearly ANY system, but without the bells and whistles... Something along the line of what the recording industry did when going from LPs to Stereo LPs... Dolby A & SR brought stereo optical, but along with it increased frequency response AND better signal/noise ratio (because of the noise reduction)... However, what I have seen, so far, indicates cyan tracks will have better stereo seperation (good), BUT POORER signal/noise ratio, even WITH the best reverse red reader... Not every customer can hear frequencies up to 16k hz, BUT nearly everyone can hear NOISE, so this doesn't look like an advance in sound reproduction from here!... And the fact that cyan isn't compatible back to existing white light, just makes it even less so... Why not just call it what it REALLY is, a forced enviormental issue...
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Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 19 Jul 2003 18:09 #21588

  • LanceC
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So what you are saying is that this is not any different than changing refrigerant in most old air conditioning compressors or putting unleaded gas in your car because of the catalytic converter. Both regulations were costly and environmentally friendlier. While I may not be able to debate signal to noise or frequency response with reverse scan, (I leave that to my friend Gordon Mcloud) I do see the benefits of less pollutants going directly in this rock we live on. So yes, it does have a great deal to do with environmental issues....is that bad?
lance
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Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 19 Jul 2003 18:12 #21589

Call it a forced enviromental issue if you want but that is also true of many other industries
As far as the signal to noise ratio issue it is 1.5 db noisier than a silver track lets see the perception of level change is 3db so it is not in the range of audio hearing

Cinemascope was not backward compatable item either either buy a scope lens or don't show it same with 3d

Its benifits far outway the disadvantages
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Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 20 Jul 2003 05:52 #21590

  • outaframe
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Gordon, funny you should mention Cinemascope... In most cases, it required a PAIR of anamorphics, and almost always a new pair of primary lenses, new apertures, a new screen (which some houses had to nearly remodel to accomodate), and in the case of the Fox 35mm magnetic/optical prints, two new sets of narrow tooth sprockets, and a special splicer... And, when was the last time you saw a Fox Scope 2:55 print with mag/op sound and narrow sprocket holes?... After they forced everybody to buy all this stuff, they shortly adopted the 2:35 format with standard sprocket holes (which we are still using) and shelved the original format, which COULD have done in the beginning... Cinemascope is a great format (you don't have to look twice to see the advantage) and it's by far the most light efficient of all current aspect ratios, so despite the fact that Fox bailed out on their original specs because of the cost of magnetic striping, and terrible magnetic head wear, it ended up partially as a benefit... Yet, it also closed many old houses which couldn't accept the screen, and was bastardized in lots of others with undersized apertures to more or less fit the screen they had... Scope and Dolby are something the customers can see and hear, but they'll never even notice cyan has arrived (unless it's so bad they can hear the difference), and could care less... As to its PR value as an enviornmental issue, most are so jaded by the constant bombardment of this stuff, it'll get lost in the shuffle... I'm not against something that is a demonstrable improvement, but cyan doesn't look to be, and having it shoved down our throats doesn't set well... The seat belt interlocking system of the early 70's is a great example of Big Brother doing "good" for us, and look how well that was received!...
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Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 20 Jul 2003 09:23 #21591

Actually it was the exhibitors who single stroke of the usual of head in the sand put film technology backwards with the opposition to mag sound. THe heads didn't wear that badly and the foxhole sprocket was actually stronger than the standard KS sprocket was,
Exhibitor apathy also killed each attempt at 3d projection either improperly synced machines or poor illumination and alignement with the single film systems.
Exhibitor apathy also has faded out the use of 70mm release prints which at a time of even larger than ever screens the larger frame would provide better illumination and sharpness.
The worst case of cyan tracks would be in a theatre still running a mono soundsystem and if that is the case one has definetly put your head in the sand.
>end of rant<

I think the dinasours found the global climate change (or cosmic rays) unfair as well and probably complained just as much

Cyan tracks are an overall improvement there will be less rejected prints and fewer non rejected ones with chemical splatter guard band overshoot

Also the last foxholed mag print I handled was Best Little WhoreHouse in Texas

[This message has been edited by Gordon McLeod (edited July 20, 2003).]
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Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 20 Jul 2003 09:34 #21592

  • Ken Layton
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There wouldn't be chemical band overshoot if the labs would do a good job to begin with! They just want to get lazy and do sloppy lab work. You can thank those tree-huggers at the EPA for closing down all the IB Technicolor printing processes, too.
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Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 20 Jul 2003 11:04 #21593

Ken Labs typically do good work.
The average print run is over 2000 prints and by the economics of the industry (capatilism) it is ofetn done in one or two days
If the labs were to revert to slower speed printers then a lot of theatres would have to wait several weeks to get a print of a major release.
And I am sure a lot of theatres would like to have opened the Hulk 2 weeks late after word got out

And the EPA did not shut down Technicolor it was just not economically feasable to IB print hispeed runs the processes is slower

Also Technicolor in the 50's experimented with cyan tracks to get rid of the requirement of using a BW reciever stock and processing and washing the complete image area before doing the transfer of the picture. They attempted to use a Diazo type cyan track but that slowed the process down even farther.


And cinecolor had in the 30's cyan tracks on most of the 2 color prints that required red excitors and what was refered to as green dot phototubes (i have some of those still in the box)

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Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 21 Jul 2003 02:09 #21594

  • outaframe
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Gordon, I don't want to pick nits about this stuff, but I have read that the signal/noise ratio of cyan is poorer by more than the 1.5 db you indicated... However, using your figure, that 1.5 db is still significant: 3 db is double (audiably), so that 1.5 db still represents nearly a 50% increase in noise!... I have the comparison figures somewhere, but not in hand at the moment, and I seem to recall that SR is less than a 1 db improvement over Dolby A at certain frequencies, so a loss of 1.5 db is really a step backwards from where things are at the moment... Most people with good hearing can detect a 1 db difference in sound levels, even though it takes a 10 db increase in SPL to be percieved as twice as loud... Selling cyan tracks as a sound improvement just doesn't hold water!... I can see some enviornmental justification, but suspect much of that may be overblown... In the long pull, the only ones who stand to benefit from this are film processors, and perhaps the studios, IF any cost benefits are passed back in reduced print costs... It's a done deal, no matter, and we are left no alternative but to go along... Gets kinda old, being walked on, however!
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Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 22 Jul 2003 13:47 #21595

You are incorrect
Bell Labs in there tests had determined that the average person preceives a change in sound at 3db. That is why tolerances are specified at the 3db point
Even most musicians could not determin 1db
Dolby SR offers a 10db improvement over Dolby A type in noise supression
Now it is possible to probably record a program of tones to fool the sliding bands but it would not be easy

There is approximately 1.5 db of increased noise. And that is not due to the cyan track itself but the nature of a monochromatic spectral light source. That increase in noise is already present in any of the LED reverse scan readers whether is is IR or red LED.
It is only present when the bias lines are fully open so in fact it is typically masked by loud sounds as that is the only time the bias track is fully open

There is an increase in cross modulation distortion and that is due to the loss of diffusion of the multilayer soudntrack but that is offset with the fact that a single layer recording is capable of greater resolution (due to less diffusion) and will have a slightly better high frequency response

Also the reduction of application errors will improve the odds of agood quality consistant print source as well
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Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 22 Jul 2003 19:28 #21596

  • outaframe
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Sorry Gordon, I respectfully disagree with nearly everything you have just stated (as do MANY others), but it's the rhetoric and justification that's being used for cyan tracks... When this all first came up, I planned to go to red light readers, then as the less than desireable facts about cyan surfaced, I waited in the hope that it, like so many other things in this business, would die off... IF it does come to pass, we will have no choice, but for now, I am going to sit tight and hope that doesn't... Film is about to go the way of the Dino anyway, and to make this kind of change so late in its life span doesn't really make a lot of sense, but que sera!...
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Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 22 Jul 2003 20:04 #21597

Sorry but those numbers were confirmed by Dolby Labs
In the last few years we have installed over 300 LED readers and only replaced about 4 leds
Most have stayed very stable
Nowdays I don't proviode sound service to excitor lamp equiped theatres anymore and all the circuits I deal with are fully converted.
Also I don't do THx recerts on excitor theatres or TAP alignements
And film will be around for a long time still to come for at least 10 years by even the manufacturers optimistic projections
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Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 22 Jul 2003 21:59 #21598

  • outaframe
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Never had any problem with the red reader, it MAY prove out fine... It's the cyan track!... You already know there are plenty of doubters on a certain other board, & they too question the specs which you're quoting... As for the Dolby mention, those specs are disputed even on the Dye Tracks site (or at least by one of the links I found there)... Blow it off, if you will, this is still a step backwards!... Only time will tell how much longer film lasts, and my crystal ball doesn't say WHEN yet...
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Re: Second Generation Red LEDs 24 Jul 2003 09:43 #21599

  • John Pytlak
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There have already been two releases in the US with "dual inventory" cyan dye track prints sent to theatres equipped with red LED readers. Follow-up with the theatres found no problems, and the cyan dye prints were carefully examined and measured in the lab for wear with no problems. Any fading of the cyan dye would affect the picture as well, and any fading severe enough to noticeably affect the sound would likely make the picture unacceptable too.

When is the last time you saw a significantly faded (red) Kodak print made in the last 20 years? You probably haven't.

John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Customer Technical Services
Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Eastman Kodak Company
Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Telephone: 585-477-5325 Cell: 585-781-4036 Fax: 585-722-7243
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Website: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Customer Technical Services
Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Eastman Kodak Company
Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Telephone: +1 585-477-5325 Fax: +1 585-722-7243
E-Mail: This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
Website: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
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